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Talk:Lissandra/@comment-9008617-20130503213021/@comment-9008617-20130507001740
"For that first paragraph, she has a stun on 1 person, an AoE slow with that stun and damage. Kennen has an AoE stun and damage. The AoE stun trumps a single stun and slow and the damage from Kennen ult far succeeds that of Lissandra's. What do we get from this? The person who can use Kennen effectively has more damage and more CC than a point and click stun + slow like Lissandra's. Thus, more skill at Kennen = better CC and damage while Lissandra has a point and click Ulti which can do so-so damage. Is that all getting through your geeenious head?" Kennen's ult is not an AoE stun, it's AoE damage and applies marks at a rate of one per half second down to 0.33 seconds when maxed which can trigger the 1 second stun given 3 marks have been applied within 8 seconds of each other and no one tries to QSS or counter. What you're not understanding is that Lissandra's is an instantaneous ult like Taric's. Lissandra clicks, you're stunned. Lissandra doesn't have to chase you and stay within dangerous enemy range for an extended period of time to trigger her ult. Big difference, bob. On the topic of "so-so damage", Lissandra's ult applies the damage in one hit which means the damage is affected by magic resistance only once whereas Kennen's are applied at a maximum of 3 hits with each individual hit being subjected to magic resistance. And lets not forget that Lissandra's ult is 80 seconds base CD whereas Kennen's is a whopping 120 seconds base CD. "So, energy sustain for Kennen was a problem seeing as how it costed 100 energy to use his ulti, but now with effective use there's not really that much of an energy issue." I didn't account for old Kennen's energy cost for ult because it was removed. My numbers reflected the current Kennen so your point is irrelevant. "Hm, lets see a Kennen at level 3, saying he took a rank in all 3 abilities. Using Q, W and E would use in total 210 energy. If he stuns a target, he gets 25 energy back, and has his own energy regen. And wow, I didn;t know that he had a CD of 2 mins on his ult? I thought it was 10 seconds.... Genius, he needs it only when a teamfight occurs, no need for anything else. Lissandra's ult can be used for self protection until CD's come up if she's caught out or for that stun." Here's the thing, "if he stuns" seems like a small detail you're missing. His Q is a skillshot that's very much like Ezreal's Q but also shorter than Ezreal's Q. Look, I'm not saying it's impossible for Kennen to stun or regain energy but just much harder than a point and click. You completely miss the point. I don't even understand why you're telling me that Lissandra's ult can be used for self protection at this point.... Genius, indeed. "Mana becomes less of an issue, but its not like you will never go OOM at level 18, especially with how you liberally use the word spamming and Q." What's your point? My point was that energy is maxed at 200 whereas max mana can be easily boosted and naturally grows with levels. You're falling short of adding anything to this conversation.. again. "When did I say that? Or refer to that? I said they have a better slow, and they are non-ult abilities. Though they lack the damage, they have the relative usage in comparion the an ult, which is usually left for teamfights or other purposes depending on the nature of the champ. Nunu ult does slow and damage, Karthus ult does slow and increases the damage you are about to do with that 1 sec CD Q. And on the topic of Nunu, a yeti/boy charging up an ult with a 250% AP ratio over a course of time is very hard to notice. Huh?" Lissandra's Q is non-ult and I've already discussed my reasons why it's better than a number of slows by other champs. Feel free to actually address that instead of just prattling on about how simply it's "better". It's called substance. You lack it. Karthus' slow is just a slow. Lissandra's slow is a slow + damage in one move within 2-4 second CD that also happens to shotgun shards of ice to anything behind the target. You're essentially arguing that using two moves to accomplish what one move can do is better and more practical. In regards to Nunu's ult, the comparison was made that you only look at the slowing effect of the skill and not the damage or utility which is exactly what you've been doing by simplifying Lissandra's CCs. Also note, Nunu's ult when cast in a bush cannot be seen by the enemy much like Lissandra's glacial path. "So, was I ever playing AD Kennen when running past people with lightning all around me? And I guess that the free armor and MRres is that oblivious to you.... Well, I forgot to mention about a core for Kennen being Zhonya's but I thought a genius like you would have known that item was there for him." Why are we talking about AD Kennen? AD Kennen wouldn't have Zhonya's... The free armor/magic resist you're talking about is the 4 second active on Lightning Rush that only grants +50 which although good isn't ground breaking to make Kennen go from squishy to tanky. I've already addressed this... try reading for eff's sake, genius, genius, genius. Seems like all you can say... "I deem Nasus as the King of Slows because he has the strongest slow in the game. If you can't understand that, then whatever..." I never disputed if Nasus was the King of Slow or not, brah, my argument was that you had to make the comparison of the "King of Slow" to Lissandra and I still provided a really valid counter argument that 2 posts later you've still yet to address. So yeah, "whatever". Zzz ~_~ "Now, let's see her amount of jack. A 28% slow, a snare, a stun+another slow for 20%. In reality, its not that strong but I guess people see that she has 4 CC on her skills and call out OP out of their ass." Try using some context instead of simplifying everything to fit your argument. It's a 2-4 sec CD Caitlyn AA ranged 28% slow that deals modest damage + additional shrapnel that doesn't reduce in damage, an AOE snare/root that stops bruisers in their tracks and does modest damage, another skillshot AOE that does damage and doesn't reduce in damage AND allows for 7-12 second flashes AND is invisible coming from bushes, and finally the AOE ult that does both damage and a 20% AOE slow and can either stun for 1.5 seconds or give zhonya's for 1.5 seconds. Context, chump. "So, the whole enemy team will line up for an Ezreal Ult? I know that its big but its dam near impossible to be able to get 1 over 5 smart people. 3 okay, but not 5. I borught up Ezreal? Well, Einstein, sorry to bring this and ruin your day, but you brought him up from you ass -________-'' ''I'm saving face by bringing a passive which scales off of the number of enemy champs? Kepp dreaming kid." Landing Ezreal's ult on 3 or more during a teamfight really isn't that hard. But that's coming from someone who plays Ezreal. I find it more fun sniping runners anyways. In any case, the context of this was that Ezreal's passive was more useful during teamfights to which you said so was Lissandra's passive by her needing to landing her W to maximize hits to lower her passive CD to which I called you an idiot. Now you're making some strawman argument about who brought up Ezreal's passive when that's a non-issue. Good job! And yes, why the hell did you bring up Wukong's passive? There was no reason at all, issue was that you said Lissandra's passive was like Ezreal's and was for teamfights and you were dead wrong. Get over it, kid. You're embarassing yourself. "Yeah, by spanking, do you mean the fact that you have been complaining about the fact that Lissandra has a lot of CC, when the CC itself is not as good as one thinks.... '' ''And now, throughout all this, her damage ratios are not that high. There's this thing which Riot likes to do, when 1 part of the kit is strong, another part will be comparatively weaker. StarSaviour, the amount of whining you have done, with no real initiative to see past the number of CC a champ has is just plain... kiddish. I have been making comparisons to champs as to why she is not OP, while you stick to 2 things, she has CC and a skill similar to flash, without taking into account damage. And then you start calling me a troll for no apparent reason and then resort to calling names, like a kid." Complaining? I'd thank you not to belittle my actual valid points into "complaining" whereas you've brought abso-freaking-lutely nothing substantial to the table. Like, seriously, take a minute and go back and re-read your arguments. You're all over the place. Calling me "genius" with such sarcasm it reeks through the screen. Your entire argument has been that: 1) Annie and Kennen are better stunners which I've disproved time over time again. Hell, you even stopped bringing up Annie (thank god). 2) Other champs have better slows but I've brought up valid counter points and you've brought up diddly squat. 3) Cheap ad hominem attacks about how I must not know what I'm talking about while I'm the one dishing out facts and numbers left and right and you're the one saying "nah uh". Grow up. That's why I call you a kid. "As a final note, so on your standards, Ezreal is the best ADC in the game. Well, there's many other ADC in the game and noone wants to listen to 1 person's view saying X is the best ADC for no apparent reason." I never said Ezreal is the best ADC in the game... I'm seriously wondering how far in life you'll get if you can't read basic English without coming up with the completely wrong analysis or even meaning of what you've just read. You lost this debate from the get go when you stopped providing any actual facts and counter points or rebuttals. Nothing but cheap misdirects which I'm beginning to wonder if it's deliberate or you're just really that dumb... Have fun, I'm going to play the game while you come back to post in your own long-winded form, "nah uh"